254.541.2985 John Hille, john@jhille.com. Can you send me some, Ed? Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver. below are samples of Proof Marks of different countries. Can anybody shed some light here? source of Manufacturer Serial Numbers. Hi, thanks for the info and knowledge you provided. Bernimolin Applied to all gun not made in Belgium but proofed in Belgium. I had a gunsmith replace some springs and open the choke. My best guess is that it's a maker's mark, but of course I could be wrong. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. Andr M.J. Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? Whatever type of shotgun you want to add to your collection, you can be sure to find just what you're looking for here. only 70 i see is the 70above the D = above where it says 20.7 i dont know what those numbers mean. The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. Using a shotgun shell (a self-contained cartridge with multiple small, sphere-shaped projectiles) instead of a usual bullet is what makes a shotgun a separate kind of a gun. is about 30 cm X 22 cm (11.80" X 8.60"). Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. Clment Charles Philibert Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. Rifles & Musket Information. Bookmark Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. . firearms books bibliary. This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. By 1931, Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium (FN) launched an even smaller .25 ACP pistol developed by the company's chief designer, Dieudonn Saive. Cachoir B. Tradename on guns made in Belgium, c.1900. As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one." Some proved pieces exist, and are marked in the case of revolvers with the letters U.S., in the case of other arms with the letters V.P. ~JP2lLn)wMO(;%vvRnS>2sw~zG!D""L0MW#+J%d)g"#Q4H&D4&KdU_};g|CN>Is>X&'vqFc&Pkr3EjZ1M&|dv55*6GI?/cOra#2K;cW>rLFtgtycw^4RiK-myVS[${XZw ho"=^f%DeiG wPnD6#diqSg].GI24?>.0 ?~wXy$6Sd3Ln2IdLL_#6)G7OE)7igF. No maker's name at all. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. Quick Facts Burlet On the bottom of the barrel it has the proof mark like number 9 (E,L,G,) (no crown). time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. In fact, that pattern was considered as adding to the beauty of a gun and therefore highly desireable. in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. The 1136 is engraved on the bottom of the barrel. Four barrel . Charlier Ch. carefully bound by threads. The viewers mark was a capital V, also surmounted with a crown. that we have found on this subject. have a great day! This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. . Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. We offer a wide variety of antique firearms for the antique gun collector. SCH or EC is abbreviations of the powder: SCH meaning Schultze. the 20th century. Britte Frres Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information Bernard Victor & Cie Thank you Jerry. M855 Green Tip, Didn't find what you were looking for? Bauduin Charles Serial Numbers. It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. gfk0W2|Z#C7xA5 2`f)Hj'[iZWMU=|J-T `)Mtex=]m$azBbk>$QPB gTb0nnPTbj\uD`.3;7 ;U}LuB+2aki!Ld1QNUwr$Oaj9,U1Oe~N2u]6;&?a'LOe3 NIIS/\4fFIGXT[,(rN]3"!2(4YBd^VUY:;jWCJ^f"X.2X:l\d>|D}#&Ofw`Rv|$6&)M Marlin-Savage-Winchester The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. Modern pistols and revolvers are proved in their last stage of manufacture when complete with action and in firing order. Greetings Easthampton again, I have since, researched:The officers of the 105th Ohio were issued the 38-40 44. The book Coquilhat Aim Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. Dallas, Donald. Belgian Arms cie Liege, Belgium has been a gunmaking center for centuries. I'll restrict myself therefore tosaying something about gun making in Belgium and offering some proof marks. The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size (or nominal bore) plus the shell or cartridge case length. Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. Worldwide Logistics for all your products. Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. It could be of relatively recent manufacture. Lee Kennett did afine survey, "A History of Proof Marks: Gun Proof in Belgium," that waspublished in. What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? You may know how to do this: put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it with a pencil at the muzzle. JavaScript is disabled. Clment Walter Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . Original British Martini-Henry Rifle Extractor Mk IV From $34.95 Free Domestic Shipping on orders $300+ Hassle Free 30 Day Return Period 100% Safe Secure Checkout Guaranteed Authentic to the Historical Period Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. Second Variation serial numbers 707517-851751 (7,000 produced) - 708921. After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? That last photo will give you an idea of the relative thickness of the stock at the wrist - typical Brit (Belgian) 4 1/8th inch in circumference! We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. St. Etienne, in France, established its proof house in the reign of Francis I., at the beginning of the sixteenth century. Smith & Wesson markets gun accessories, handcuffs, safes, apparel, watches, collectibles, knives, tools, air guns, and myriad other products under its brand name, including cologne, handbags, and washing machines. I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. - Galoppin Chaumont M.J. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Does it reach the touch hole? But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one cant get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one cant find the inspectors mark. Thomas Jefferson. M Mecar (4 P) Pages in category "Firearm manufacturers of Belgium" Any info will help. Thank y'all again! Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. The "D.D. production. Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. Pictures would help! It was mandatory post-1924. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. These firearms Bury Jules. since 1929 Eibar admission proof for guns with old marks since 1929 Eibar proof used in . Counet - Genot A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. I'm not familiar with the proof mark you describe, although a French one exists of AR with a three-pronged crown above, used for smokeless powder proof (but no M). http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home. Hi, Jeremy. In some cases this cipher is also preceded by the figures 16, and followed by a capital B., also surmounted by a crown. Some older foreign manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a location, rather than a manufacturer. Carl, I've checked Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks as well as those listed at Cornell Publications, and came up empty handed. Seen cases. These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. The drawings vary in style due to differences in the original information.Most are black silhouettes, but some of those that have been produced from photographs have a quasi 3 dimensional appearance that requires the onlooker . Berleur Michel acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". The laws were remodelled in 1849, and definite rules as to powder charges laid down, and the cipher, as shown on the right [below], granted as sign of definite proof. Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. Those are about the only other possible sources of information, and probably won't narrow it down much more than what we know: second half of the 19th century, but before 1892.Best,GerryBest. Ancion Jacques & Cie for exports be able towithstand a proscribed load without damage. Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. I have a Belgium 38-40 with a 7 in barrel all matching. The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. Measuring the bore diameter and chamber Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 By Alain Daubresse This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. visiting our on-line listing of manufacturers identifying marks, Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's. http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. Hunting, fishing, cooking, and other critical aspects of life. Bazin F.J. Please note! Provisional black powder proof for breech loading guns, since 1924 reserved for smooth bore barrels. I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. The third is a plain stamp, with the letters A.V.E. Bischop Pierre The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. Comblain Dieudonn Joseph Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to ghcox3@gmail.com. Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? So the only indicator of the chamber depth is found with the stamp of the Chamber dimensions? There's no indication of chamber length--but that didn't begin until 1892.The other marks I can't identify.So what can I tell you? In addition to presented below is the first of the series and is covering the gunmakers whose names are Ancion Marx Each new gun is presented in a best oak and leather case complete with canvas outer and a full complement of accessories. late 1880's to early 1890's, .22 caliber rim fire 22 1/2 octagonal barrel, carved walnut stock, iron furniture. A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Brandon, but I've been out of the country w/o internet access. GWO, good condition. The crown R and star P stamped on the barrel, receiver, and cylinder. Bernard Alphonse Most shotguns have smoothbore barret to be able to use shells which are grouped by gauges (instead of rifles caliber) - they indicate the weight of the ammunition fired. Bernimolin & Cap 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. Do you have any information on them? But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. Nowadays these firearms are mostly used for hunting or kept at home for self-defence. Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. What about a lightning bolt with a star above? Today, quality 12-gauge field grade guns from all the American makers during this era can be found and purchased for less than $1,000. The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.Best,Gerry, Gerry;I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. Parisa cipher of E. and P. set back to back (as shown below). this book online and pay it through Paypal. Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". Comblain CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. Bodson TH. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. determination. 1860-1870. I'm very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. It's as useful in a duck blind as it is . Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. Paypal, Order JavaScript is disabled. % ArmsCollectors.com Collectable Firearms Forums Modern, antique and collectable firearms, questions answered, gun & militaria related items. Mark for optional superior provisional proof. It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. Revolvers are marked on barrel, on the frame, and on each chamber. Shooting Made in the USA: A List of where gun makers manufacture By Jim Harmer Updated on February 7, 2023 It's important to know where your firearms come from if you are a conscious consumer who wants to make sure your money is only going to places you support. Courard Based only on the pictures, those barrels do not appear to be Damascus. Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? After years of looking at and trying Your help is appreciated. Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. . Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . It could be almost anything: an English Greener, which would have Birmingham, England, proof marks, or it could be a double of dubious origin. All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers Home > Companies Gun & arms makers from Belgium country Czech Republic South Africa Israel Malaysia Netherlands Belgium Norway United Arab Emirates Finland Nigeria Ukraine Hungary Indonesia Lithuania Serbia Slovak Republic Croatia New Zealand Sweden Greece Japan Slovenia The 'z' most likely is an inspector's mark indicating satisfactory quality for this part: in this case, a revolver cylinder--that's my best guess, anyway. wolf and human romance manga J.C. Higgins Model 31 Parts, Schematic | Numrich Gun Parts Manufacturers J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 Parts List Sort by: Show Available 0 Schematic w/ Parts List 2 Driving Spring 3 Driving Spring Guide 4 Barrel 5 / 6 Bolt 8 Buttplate Screw 9 Buttplate Trim 10 Cartridge Lifter 11 Cartridge Lifter . this location now so you can return often. I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. 1891 - present 16 Barrel weight in grams of nitro proofed shotguns. It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. Ever seen that? Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. Liege, in Belgium, has always been celebrated for its weapons, and established its proof house as a municipal enterprise on May 10, 1672, when it was laid down that barrels should be marked with the stamp of the city, and unproved weapons might not be sold under pain of a fine of a gold florin and the confiscation of the unproved barrel. I have pictures If you need them. Bayet Frres Besides these national collections, there are many municipal and private galleries whose curators have formed most excellent catalogues, but in the main this knowledge is uncoordinated. The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. Very long barrel. Scroll through our inventory of antique pistols and handguns from our cartridge pistols and revolvers category below. Christophe Louis it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d'Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. He received his technical training in Soest and then in Warstein. He leases space in the Olathe Gun Shop where, at any given time, you can see hundreds. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks, Manufacturers 1840-1860. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. and BELGIUM had a glut of old, obsolete flint lock and percussion gun parts left over from years past. referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder. Colleye Henri Joseph The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. Information, NRA I can send pictures of it. Or any info? Bastin Frres Jun 21, 2012. A great deal of painstaking research work is necessary before a list of armourers marks applied to pistols can be compiled, but I have every hope of preparing such a list at a future date when peace is restored in Europe and the great museum collections are accessible. Behr Jean jacques Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. Anonymes This will be an on going There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . The fifth a crown, with three crossed spikes set over a capital E. Other French towns had their special marks, such as Designates rifled barrel. Baker, David J. The idea behind such a test is to verify the strength of the barrel, breech and firing system of a firearm by deliberately firing an over-pressured cartridge. Baltus - Wilmotte Would that appear at this location on the piece?What Im attempting to do, is get this pistol appraised; thus the research to discover all the markings. A "Greener" double? Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. to identify antique arms from different parts of the world, we decided Belgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 preBelgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 pre 1898 fine old Belgium imported exposed hammer shotgun, Leige proofed, floral engraved receiver showing some; FINE 19C. for your continued support, encouragement and admonishment. Berleur Guillaume Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). There's no indication of gauge. thanks for the help so far. Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. Collette Lopold Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! Austrian arms were marked with the double eagle, and later with the letters Wn 78; a variety of private marks of manufacturers are also in use. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. Any help would be appreciated. Counet-Leboulle J. Nessonvaux is short drive outside of Liege. Sorry! Closset Louis Side by side shotguns of this era are highly collectable and our inventory changes frequently. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. Counet Philippe I have tried to look up an 1136 but am unable to locate them anywhere. Rich engraved. Henri Pieper (left) and Nicolas Pieper (right) Henri Pieper was born and raised in modest German home in Soest (Westphalia) Germany on Oct 30, 1840. Thanks Brandon. Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. Since it reads >>Made in Belgium<< on the side of the tubes it was made for export. It is located just above the circle with ELG. Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. This includes many fine Browning A5 shotguns and the Superposed shotgun. By Alain Daubresse. Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. thank you. He designed iconic guns like the M1911 handgun, the Browning Hi-Power pistol, and the Browning Auto-5 shotgun. The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. x\}WT_0qk E%Mp8@S36QG7=TFx,P?wU]4v>3}wc)0~_+. Any ideas as to date range? arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. Hand Guns 8 Rifles-Shotguns 2 . A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Illinois Secretary Of State Police Pay Scale, Articles O
